mihail121 at November 13th, 2003 05:38 — #1
You know what?!? I'm SICK!!!! Why?! Cause all of the idiots lately. The people that actually know something about computers are getting less every day! Nobody cares about assembler anymore, software render, ray-tracing or casting. There is only hardware, per-pixel,vertex shaders and etc. bullshit. And not only that... somebody is constantly deleting all of the great articles tutorials and etc. from the net and replacing them with cheap D3D or OGL imitations. People are using ultra high level APIs(GFX that is) and doing per-pixel shader programs or etc. without even knowing that 1/z is linear and z is not in screen space. The so called programmers of the new times think that it's enough to learn C++(not even C =/) and start programming. They don't care about assembler optimizations or they don't even care how the computer actually work cause it's enough for them that the Microsoft's compiler will do everything for them. Pretty sucki a? I myself think that this sux and that in 10 to 15 years the programmers will be some brainless idiots that use the Microsoft standarts for everything. Of course there are people that still keep the old art of the programming alive and are tring to imporve it. So my last words are: LET'S FIGHT FOR THE OLD ART OF PROGRAMMING! DO NOT LET IT DIE!
evilsmile at November 13th, 2003 07:24 — #2
Don't panic yet. Why do you think the operating system exists? It is there so that the programmer can concentrate on the job at hand without having to worry about lower level stuff. So, people are doing right if they are usign as high level an API as possible. However, it is not right if they don't know the basics of how a computer works (and this too, is valid only if their job requires it of them - eg: Game Programmers). And as for using only microsoft interfaces and being idiots - I think that microsoft would not even be the last entity that a sane person would trust . I am sure the folks who produce good products are not idiots and wouldn't be so in the future either. The art of programming is independeng of the language or the level at which you are doing it (Ofcourse the style would greatly be affected by the language though...)
I am sure others have more to say about this (and I am sure there is a lot I missed here, which they would be kind enough to add).
anubis at November 13th, 2003 08:19 — #3
heh, everything decays... even the mona lisa on a serious note, there are just more pople trying to write games. naturally, since computers have grown much in popularity and possiblities over the last decade. also these pople are getting younger and younger ( not saying that there aren't any smart young people out there ). the same can be seen in other communitys like, well, counter strike. it used to be fun to play cs but if you enter a public server today it's havoc. still many of my friends keep playing the game.
so i don't think that there are actually less "real" people in gamedev, they are just harder to find in the crowd today.
baldurk at November 13th, 2003 12:00 — #4
I think that you're expecting too much. In todays world, although it would be nice for people to learn about assembler optimisation and software rendering, people simply don't want to.
I believe that's OK for 2 reasons
1) many more people take up programming as a HOBBY. Yes it's a big one, in some cases the only one, but it's not intended to be a profession. Time is taken up by school so much that people don't have the time to learn such advanced things. Even if they did, they'd rarely find a use for it (by this I mean a situation where they would *need* to know it).
2) it's becoming less necessary. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but when people programmed in DOS, they communicated directly to the gfx card. OK, people knew more and were on the whole better coders, the code was convoluted. Ask anyone who programmed in DOS, and I think they'll say that todays code is cleaner.
What I think we do need to look out for are people who don't even bother to learn a language. They copy-paste nehe code, change the pictures and call themselves 1337 programmers. Now *this* is a bad trend.
btw, I think it's actually a bad idea for newbies to learn C and C++. The two languages (when used properly) encourage two different types of coding. It's better to pick one and, sadly in my opinion, that is most often C++.
P.S. Paragraphs are good
thecell at November 13th, 2003 13:04 — #5
I do not agree with Mihail121 on one thing. I think there is just as many brilliant people as there were 10 years ago. The difference between now and then is that nowadays, there's simply more normal people. You must have the will to learn something, and Microsoft does everything to hide what we want from us. Most people doesn't even want to learn, they want to produce(anyone looked at the staff board on Mud Connector?). Peoples are willing to produce things, not necesseraly in learning.
The problem that I see today(from my point of view) is that programming is exactly what baldurk mentionned : a hobby for most people. Most people don't need to learn assembly, and hence, they won't learn it, or if they do, it will be a hobby. Back then, there wasn't any top of the line Graphic Card, ultra fast memory, etc... if programmers wanted to make games, they had to use their brains and everything available to get the best performance out of their box simply to display a handful of polygons on a screen. But as I said, today's optimisation resides on the hardware side of the computer, not on the software(or programmer). Even though it's good to have faster hardware, I still find sad that some people buys Michael Abrash's Graphics Programming Black Book just to appear flashy, and let dust cover it. Unfortunately, there is more and more people that have that kind of attitude, and I think that's what Mihail121 tried to explain(Correct me if I'm wrong). As was once said : Attitude is no excuse for incompetence.
Kids have it easy these days...
bladder at November 14th, 2003 02:29 — #6
I predict that in the far future (maybe 10+ years) that graphics cards will become obsolete. The CPU will be able to handle everything and then software renderes will be back!
Just think about it. CPUs are getting more powerful everyday, eventually they'll be powerful enough to handle everything possible *today* on the CPU. if you just go with that analogy into the future a bit. then you will end up with the CPU doing everything. When that happens, a software renderer will be way more useful then a d3d render becuase it will be 100% compatible and fully supported becuase everything is on the CPU.
Then only out down would then be the users CPU power. Actually. The PCU will probably end up with loads of built in 3D functions, i mean we have 3DNow and similar thigns now that handle mediocre stuff. Eventually processor capabilities will increase dramatically. and a whole new world will follow.
i cant wait i cant wait i cant wait.
evilsmile at November 14th, 2003 03:18 — #7
That may not happen because the work done by the graphics subsystem has ben increasing constantly. I am sure the CPU would have more physics, AI and stuff to take care of while the graphics card would be churning out more polys with all those complex shaders and stuff...
anubis at November 14th, 2003 10:26 — #8
consider the play station 3 with an announced 1 terraflop of processing power... you can pack everything including gfx into that
baldurk at November 14th, 2003 11:32 — #9
1) CPU power cannot increase exponentially, or even linearly. It is simply not possible to keep adding power on, as eventually you will reach physical barriers. Perhaps not insurmountable, but to keep the cost down, it would be effectively so.
2) I've been playing FF7 recently. It's running on software mode, but everything is fine. Could they have said in 1997 that by 2003, we won't need graphics cards and been correct? no. The reason for this is that as graphics increased, so did most other aspects - AI, physics, etc. Look at halflife2. I'm sure that on max detail, the physics would be very taxing for the current average CPU, and that's STILL not perfectly 100% lifelike. Imagine what CPU we'll need when it is perfect?
Stupid smileys >:(.
davepermen at November 14th, 2003 13:32 — #10
main reason they are not correct is because marketing and all pushed everything to the "we need gpu's for all, software rendering is out" style.
todays cpu's can do everything we _would_ need. but they are not really designed to do it anymore, and gpu's got pushed to just fit the todays needs. they are not really usable at all, and still not at all programable. but as long as it looks good, people pay for all sort of shit.
if gpu's wouldn't have get pushed that much just for money, cpu's would have evolved in a bether way, SSE would be like vs3.0 or bether, and running on one or several hyperthreads.
full cpu optimized rendering tasks are very fast. and very flexible.
and i see the trend started to dive much more into software rendering again. gpu's drift off the way they are really usable. they get too much split from the rest of the hw. that will lead to more and more needs to solve partial tasks completely in software..
in 2-3 years, we get the first cpu's with several parallel running cores in. this will be the end of gpu's. local, united rendering performs much more efficient than rendering with the separated gpu. resource and bandwith efficient, that is. and the rest will be a cpu designed for parallelism..
and rastericing is yet now dying.. it will be dead in some years.
mihail121 at November 15th, 2003 06:51 — #11
10x all for not creating a flame war and discussing this nicely. Here is my point:
It is quite true that programming nowdays is more like a hobby and it was the same with me some years ago but i realized this is what i have to do for living. We don't dicuss people doing as a hobby cause they are harmless.
The people that don't do it for living though shoud be discussed. I don't deny that there are still much people that try to keep the old art alive but i think that they are getting less every day. For example we have high level GFX APIs like OpenGL and D3D. I know thousand of people that use those APIs without even know how they work. Now just don't tell me they don't need to know that. I'm also partially agreed with the Microsoft standarts. Of course there is no need to re-invent the wheel each time an application is beeing written. But people shoud have general idea of how those things work and i think they shoud be able to write them too.
About that CPU/GPU war. I'm agreed with those of you that think that in the future GPUs will be obsolete since CPUs will become faster/better/stronger. Right now dual processor machines are taking over and i don't see where's the problem to use the second one as GPU or something like that. When i think now, the software rendering was never dead( just look at the MESA drivers ) so there is no need to revive it BUT as you pointed some people just don't think it's important to learn how it works.
My final word is about all of those newly-born n00bish programmers that we know and that are getting more and more recently. I've always wondered why such people don't make some efford and learn something more useful than C++ and OGL for example. I would like to say that i realize how much is expected from programmers nowdays but if you can't hold it than better not start it!
10x for reading
anubis at November 16th, 2003 03:21 — #12
hmm, when i review my own path of learning it gets obvious that i learned about software rendering first. i started out at a time where software rendering was still being used. when you looked for game programming tutorials you would still stumble over good old mode 13h. so it somehow was clear that you had to know about software rendering techniques. today the people who know about software rendering don't usr it anymore most of the time so there is less talk and less information about it. when you are new to gfx/game programming i doubt that you'll find much that points you in the "learn software first" direction. much rather you start out because someone told you about nehe. maybe if there was a more present and active community around software rendering more people would realize that it still exists.